E-Panel: Writing Women's Voices

The following is a live e-panel conducted with Lauren Cerand, the fifth such panel since we began the concept last March.  This one, as Lauren explains in the introduction, ran a little differently as Lauren actually joined in to co-moderate, and two of the particpants actually did so via e-mail after the chat due to either scheduling, or technological issues.

 

Writing Women’s Voices: An Emerging Writers Network 21st Century Salon

Introduction by Lauren Cerand

I've had the good fortune to put together several live e-panels with Dan to discuss issues of interest to members of the Emerging Writers Network. Last year we started off tackling the perception of authors via their work and identities, and then delved into an in-depth examination of how authors market their books and reach an audience.

It’s worth noting that this discussion, as difficult as it was to describe and title, is not a true “live e-panel,” as past editions have been, nor is it a group interview by email. Rather, it is an unusual hybrid of live conversation conducted via IM with two authors and two moderators, and two authors who answered the questions later via email due to timing and technological constraints. And two authors sent thoughtful reading lists as a post-script! All of the contributions and comments were folded together to create EWN’s “21st Century Salon.” And I’d like to disclose that, as an independent publicist, I’ve worked with Bill Gordon, Michelle Herman and Ronna Wineberg. Indeed, working closely with authors to promote their books inspired this endeavor.

Lately, I've been thinking about craft and how storytelling relates to social and cultural norms and values. One thing that both amuses and troubles me is the idea that when a story is told from the male perspective, it's considered universal, yet when a story is told from a female perspective, it's somehow particular to women, or must fit into a defined category - commercial, literary, etc. and marginalized or examined with scrutiny... and yet, women are presumed by publishers to be the majority of book consumers in the United States. One only has to look back to the outcry over the National Book Awards just two years ago for a perfect example, or more recently, to the conversation around the 2005 round-up of people's favorite books -- how few works by women or featuring female principal characters appeared on lists compared to the usual fare.

It's definitely not a conversation about chick lit, or "tea towel" or domestic fiction -- again, just another example of how quickly discussion of work by or about women becomes focused on concepts other than the substance of the story. Nor is it a marketing conversation at all, but rather an in-depth examination of writing as a craft. It's intended to be an in-depth, and provocative, discussion of storytelling – what’s different, or isn't, about the feminine perspective in narratives, how that plays out in the structure of the work, and perhaps some talk of developing characters that are distinct but still universal and a deeper dip into writing as a craft than we've previously taken.

Christine Boyka Kluge’s poems harness nature in its many forms, according to Dan, “from the world around us - the stars and sun and sky and sea - to our very own bodies - and the blood and bones and skin and veins.”  As he notes, while “vividly describing [secrets of blood], and with a fairly subtle wit, she is also expounding upon larger issues - those of relationships we have with others, as well as with the world around us.”

Bill Gordon's novel Mary After All tells the story of a Jersey City native, like himself, coming of age the turbulent '70s. Bill has said that the novel began as a memoir of his own teenage years but quickly became a quirky, fictional tale that could be the (unabashedly female) voice of a generation.

Michelle Herman takes on the joys - and pitfalls - of modern motherhood and the central conflicts, large and small, of women's lives -- for instance, how important is it to have a best friend as an adult? -- in her excellent essay collection, The Middle of Everything.

Ronna Wineberg tells stories in her Second Language from the perspective of women of a certain age -- between middle age and their so-called "golden years,” whose husbands may or may not be having affairs, whose spouses may have died, who themselves are dying, whose children have grown and left -- and shines powerful dramatic light on the intricate intimacies of family life and loss.

I know that many EWN readers use these discussions in classes and workshops and I thought it might be a useful resource in that context. For readers, it might convince them to broaden their list of usual suspects when browsing the stacks. For aspiring writers, the discussion may help them to hone their characters' perspectives in finer detail.

The participants:

CHRISTINA BOYKA KLUGE’S first book of poetry, Teaching Bones to Fly, was published by Bitter Oleander Press. A second book, titled Stirring the Mirror, a collection of prose poetry and flash fiction, will be published by Bitter Oleander Press in 2007. Her writing has received several Pushcart Prize nominations, and was given the 1999 Frances Locke Memorial Poetry Award by The Bitter Oleander, where she was interviewed and featured in Fall 2001. Her work appears or is forthcoming in the following anthologies: No Boundaries: Prose Poems by 24 American Poets from Tupelo Press (2003); Sudden Stories: A Mammoth Anthology of Miniscule Fiction from Mammoth Books (2003); and (Some from) DIAGRAM: a Print Anthology from Del Sol Press (2003). Other writing is included in Arts & Letters, Hotel Amerika, Luna, Natural Bridge, Quarterly West, Rattapallax, Tar River Poetry, and Branches. She is also a visual artist. Her chapbook, Domestic Weather, won the first annual Uccelli Press chapbook competition in 2003 and was published by Uccelli Press in 2004. She will have a story included in PP/FF: An Anthology from Starcherone Books, in 2006.

BILL GORDON’S work has appeared in the New York Times Magazine, Mississippi Review, New York Press, Christopher Street, and Downtown. He received an MFA from Columbia University. He grew up in Jersey City and now lives in New York. Mary After All is his first novel.

MICHELLE HERMAN is the author of the novel Missing, which was awarded the Harold U. Ribalow Prize for "best Jewish fiction" and selected as one of the 25 Best Books of the Year by VLS, the literary supplement of The Village Voice; the collection of novellas A New and Glorious Life; the novella Dog; and The Middle of Everything: Memoirs of Motherhood, her first nonfiction book.  Her awards and honors include a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship, a James Michener Fellowship, numerous individual artist’s fellowships from the Ohio Arts Council and the Greater Columbus Arts Council, and a major teaching award from the Ohio State University, where she has taught since 1988.  Born and raised in Brooklyn and educated at Brooklyn College and the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop, she lives now with her husband, the painter Glen Holland, and their twelve-year-old daughter, Grace (and too many pets) in an overcrowded and insanely cluttered turn-of-the-century house in Columbus, Ohio.

RONNA WINEBERG holds degrees from the University of Michigan and University of Denver College of Law. Her work has appeared in Berkeley Fiction Review and Colorado Review. Her awards include the New York Foundation for the Arts fellowship in fiction and a Bread Loaf Writers conference scholarship. Ms. Wineberg lives in New York with her husband and three children. Second Language is her first book.

Dan Wickett:

As you know, I run the Emerging Writers Network, and I'm excited to be co-moderating with Lauren Cerand this evening. Would each of you please introduce yourselves and let us know a little bit about your work?  Ronna?

Ronna Wineberg:

Thank you, Dan.  It's great to be part of this exchange.  I'm a writer, author of a collection of stories, Second Language, which was published by New Rivers Press last October (and won their Many Voices Project Competition). The stories aren't linked but have a theme: how relationships change over time.

Dan:

Fantastic - Christine?

Christine Boyka Kluge:

Thanks for inviting me, Dan.  I'm a poet and short fiction writer.  My first book, Teaching Bones to Fly, is a poetry collection from Bitter Oleander Press.  They will publish my new collection, Stirring the Mirror, a collection of prose poetry and flash fiction in 2007.

Bill Gordon:

Bill Gordon, author of “Mary After All,” the story of a Jersey City woman who comes of age during the turbulent 1970s and discovers her own route to independence along the way.  My novel is told in the first-person voice of that woman, Mary Nolan.

Michelle Herman:

Michelle Herman (that's one "l," she said defensively, in "Michelle"--having just found out about the "modern love" column by the writer I think of, always, as "the other Michele Herman").  For years--decades--I wrote only fiction (resolutely, even combatively so--I always declared I didn't want to be a woman "of letters," only a fiction writer); recently I started writing autobiographical nonfiction, and personal essays on subjects that preoccupy me. My books are Missing, a novel; A New and Glorious Life, a collection of three novellas; Dog, a novel (not really; it's called a novel but it's also a novella--it's just that it was published as a stand-alone volume); and The Middle of Everything, a collection of novella-length personal essays that was billed as my "memoirs"--that's book publishing/marketing for you).

Lauren Cerand:

My name is Lauren Cerand, and I am a writer, blogger and independent publicist based in New York. Our jumping-off point for this conversation: What does or does not constitute "women's writing" is an endless discussion, and often a lively one.

Does writing from a feminine perspective imbue your work with a specific sensibility, or is just a natural decision much of the time?

Ronna:

For me it's a natural decision, instinctive to write about women. The voice and characters appear to me, in my imagination and are women.

Christine:

I wouldn't say I specifically try to write from a feminine perspective...but I would hope people would be aware that I was a woman writing.  I write from all sorts of points of view, some fantastic or of another gender.

Bill:

I have no idea what “women’s writing” is but I’ve the strong sense that my narrator, Mary, would not like it -- she’s not a “girly” girl.  She’s also not a “joiner. ” So if it’s a trend, she’d stay away.  That said, hers is absolutely a feminine perspective: she’s a daughter, wife, mother, and it is through that lens – those lenses -- that she views the word… and her city.

Sensibility? I grew up in Jersey City – which is so much a part of my book – seeing women get caught somewhere between Donna Reed and Jane Fonda.  Like Mary, they were mostly working class women, born too late to simply stay at home and be revered for that, yet born (or married) too early to be an active part of the women’s movement.  Many of them sort of tiptoed out into the world as their children grew older, taking part-time secretary and bank-teller jobs. There was almost an apologetic quality to it.  And I recall a lot of angry husbands/fathers (my own father included).  I found this “re-invention” fascinating.  That and their “underdog” quality.  Those, I’d say, are the primary sensibilities that Mary’s feminine perspective afforded me as a writer.

Michelle:

I'm not sure what "natural decision" means in this context, really.  I mean--I don't sit and work thinking "I'm a woman, hear me roar," and consciously write from a feminine perspective. But I also feel very conscious and active in what I do--as a writer, and otherwise. I'd say that my writing comes absolutely from everything about me, and that includes being a woman (and, particularly, being a mother, a daughter, a friend--that's a very big piece of how I see myself--and a girlfriend (as in romance) and a wife). But it also actively includes being a New Yorker, being a New Yorker "in exile" (my daughter just made me a T-shirt that says that!), being "stuck" in the Midwest, being Jewish, being a teacher--another big part of my identity--and so on. So I guess what I'm saying is that of course being a woman affects what I write. Does it affect it more than all these other things (and others I haven't mentioned)? I don't think so. It's all one big jumble of the me-ness...

Dan:

Do you find much of a difference yourself between the works you write from a feminine perspective and those you do not?

Christine:

In many ways...I'm sure...for instance?

Bill:

I have rarely written prose from a “feminine” perspective, but if I think about MARY and the female monologues I wrote as a playwright, when I focused on that, I would say there’s an invitation to the reader (or audience) – an open seduction – that is not the same with a male character.  Mary, for instance, is very much the “hostess” of her book. There is also the inclination to discuss – again openly – what’s happening with their bodies… no matter how tender or private.  I am thinking, as I write this, of a passage in “Middlesex” by Jeffrey Eugenides in which Cal, the hermaphrodite narrator, upon realizing that he is a boy (though raised as a girl), first notices that men do not have the same sense of shared biology as women, that they don’t so readily discuss what’s going on with their bodies… with their genitals… I don’t think that difference (that openness) can be ignored when trying to write in the voice of a woman vs. a man.

Michelle:

Nope. Although other people have pointed out that my male protagonists don't think about sex often enough to be "really" male. And that in general they think too much. But then lots of people find that ALL my characters "think too much" and don't do enough.

Lauren:

Is it more of a challenge to write from the perspective from anther gender, when the work is already one of fiction or fantasy?

Ronna:

For me it's a natural decision, instinctive to write about women. The voice and characters appear to me, in my imagination and are women.

Christine:

Well, I've been a boy dealing with a newborn's arrival, a dying man, a slug...I don't consider it a challenge, but an exciting discovery. It opens things wider for me.

Ronna:

I also write from the male point of view.  I do find a difference between the two perspectives. There is often something softer about the women's perspective; the men can be more connected to the world, less to family in my fiction. But it's fun to write from a different perspective, a challenge.

Bill:

It’s more a matter of trying to find the right voice for your story.  And then develop it.  Stay true to it.  At times, overcome the limitations of it.  I can’t say one gender is harder to write than another.  Though writing in the opposite gender may require more research and interviews.

Michelle:

For me it seems to make no difference at all. Though I do write more OFTEN about female protagonists. I just gravitate naturally to people who are more "like" me (in the ways that matter most to me, that is). So--I've written from the point of view of an elderly woman, with no trouble at all...but also from the point of view of a male composer and a male sculptor. I've never written from the point of view of a male OR female...endocrinologist. That's not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't, necessarily. But the things that preoccupy me tend to be what emerges in my writing. And I've never been that curious (yet) about what (for example) an endocrinologist might do all day. While an elderly woman, alone in an apartment--well, that interests me very much. What WOULD she do? Think about? Move like? What would it be like to take a bath? How would a tomato taste by the time you're that age? What would it be like to live in a world in which English is spoken always, when English wasn't your first language...

Dan:

And do you at all feel that your audience is going to be predominantly female? That is, do you find yourself writing for what you believe will be a female audience most of the time?

Ronna:

No, I would hope to have readers who are male and female. I don't write with a female audience in mind.  I'm immersed in the situation and characters when I write, not thinking of the audience.

Christine:

No, not really.  I would say I imagine my audience as equally female and male.  Although I do feel that some pieces will appeal or intrigue one gender more than the other.

Bill:

I was told as we published that my audience would be predominantly female for MARY, and that worried me; I’ve never thought there was anything about her story, her humor, her time and place, that would appeal solely to women.  And I didn’t want to miss out – leave out – an entire segment of the population (particularly own sex).  So far I’m happy to say that I’ve gotten a strong response from male readers -- letters, e-mails, etc.  It’s likely that more women are reading the book than men, but I can’t say.

Michelle:

No. But I have to admit that when I was younger--in my twenties--I wanted NOT to be a "female writer." I wanted to be a dead white male. Henry James, e.g. Or at least Saul Bellow. Or at least Bernard Malamud. I was adamant about not being read by women especially, or seen AS a woman writer. Now I just don't care. I just want to be read. And I just want to write. And I have been surprised, actually, by the fact that more men seem to respond to my nonfiction about motherhood (e.g.) than women do. (That said, I have some as-yet unpublished fiction that focuses very tightly on issues around marriage and motherhood and friendship, and several male readers--editors and publishers--have found it too narrow, too female, too banal. Which pisses me off mightily.)

Lauren: 

Do you get a different response from male versus female readers?

Christine:

I did have mostly female listeners in the audience at a reading I did on Saturday...but perhaps poetry draws more women?

Ronna:

Some male readers have really liked the story collection, which I was pleased about.  Women tend to relate more intensely to the characters, while men seem to relate to the emotions of the characters or situations.

Christine:

I think men prefer different pieces than women, to a degree.

Bill:

Absolutely.  Men tend to compare Mary to their mothers, sisters, etc. Usually in a complimentary, almost reverential way: “Mary was a good, strong woman, just like my mother… that woman raised us alone…” and so on.  And they are more apt to talk about the local details of the book – the Jersey City history I folded in.  Women, on the other hand, seem closer to it. They *are* Mary.  Or they *were* her (until).  And they zero in on the marriage: “I’m so glad she left him.”  Or: “I don’t think she should have
gotten a divorce.”   Actually, a lot of women – often the ones I like best, as it happens – home in on the scene where Mary kicks her husband’s mistress down the stairs.  For whatever reason, men don’t typically call out that scene.

Dan:

Do you think that is perhaps more accurate for readers of general fiction, as opposed to readers of literary fiction, short stories, poems and the like?

Michelle:

Apparently not.

Bill:

I would think it would be less accurate for readers of general fiction – I mean, crime and mystery books for instance, because those readers seem virtually addicted and in need a regular fix. On the other end of the spectrum, I’d say poetry, because it’s become so rarified, may have transcended any gender bias among its fans.

Lauren:

One of the provocative articles I came across when I was reading background on this topic was in The Independent, and discussed findings. The report said: 'Men who read fiction tend to read fiction by men, while women read fiction by both women and men." 'Consequently, fiction by women remains "special interest", while fiction by men still sets the standard for quality, narrative and style.' Christine, is that something you see in poetry?

Christine:

I don't really feel a gender bias toward my own work.  I have heard from male readers in a positive way.  But my work may not fit the expected themes.

Ronna:

I agree that this may be more accurate for readers of general, more commercial fiction.  Male readers interested in literary work seem open to both male and female authors.

Michelle:

Well, as far as I can tell this is true in a general way I mean, I know there are exceptions--Nick Hornby's favorite writer is Anne Tyler--but I notice among my students, for example (I teach in the MFA program at Ohio State) that the young men tend to read mostly novels and stories by men--most often YOUNG men. And the women read both men and women. My opinion is that this is stupid.

Bill:

I’m afraid that may be true – at least the thinking behind it.  In my experience, there seems to linger some adolescent “uncool” label about being a man – particularly a straight man -- who reads books by and about women. Yet I have not noticed that the reverse is true.  My opinion is that there are so few novels published that I love that I could not care -- and have never cared – less who writes them.  I’m just thankful.

Christine:

In other words, men not responding to female themes?

Lauren:

That's often the assumption in the marketplace.

Christine:

I think there are certainly books that target female audiences starting right with the cover.

Ronna:

I think in literary fiction, for example, men respond to work by women and men.  In the great marketplace of commercial fiction, it seems that male readers may read more male writers, that there are more men writing commercial fiction. Yes, there are books that target female readers. In the New York Times Book Review, usually most of the authors reviewed are men.

Christine:

And usually the books reviewed are fiction and not poetry.

Ronna:

Now fiction reviews have shrunk in New York Times. The vast majority of books reviewed are nonfiction or memoir. That's the new trend.

Lauren:

It's stunning to read Top 10 lists that only include 1 or 2 if any women writers. And that seems to be a regular occurrence. And yet I do think there's a belief in publishing that women are the majority of book buyers.

Ronna:

It's ironic, if women are the major buyers, why are there so many men reviewed, and on best seller lists.

Lauren:

I'm interested in that seeming disconnect from the perspective of a writer dealing with these issues, perhaps not in a central way, but certainly in a larger sense.

Christine:

I don't buy a book because the author is male or female.
 
Ronna:

I don't buy a book because of sex of author either.  I don't even think about it most of the time.

Christine:

Do you think poetry has a different type of audience?  Do you think it is perceived as more appealing to women? Or do people just not buy many poetry books?

Lauren:

I don't think it's a conscious bias most of the time... I think that people just assume that men's writing is more suited to universal themes, while women's writing is more about home, family and inner lives.

Michelle:

I don't think poetry is seen as more appealing to women. I do think that people in general, of any sex and age, do not buy (or read) much poetry.  When people DO read poetry, they tend to read it fairly well (so it seems to me) and more widely and intelligently than readers of fiction read fiction. But I think the audience in general is smaller, and more sophisticated, so that's not so surprising. Perhaps if I were a female poet, rather than who I am (a novelist and nonfiction writer who is "female among other things"--but who does buy and read a good bit of poetry), I would feel differently. I know my best friend, a poet, complains about women poets being treated differently from men. But she is very sensitive--far more sensitive than I--to slights, and very conscious in a way that I'm not about the sex of the writer she is reading. I'd have to stop and think if you asked me: are you reading more men than women these days, or vice versa? She wouldn't; she'd know.

Christine:

I find in poetry that many women poets have the body as a theme. Think Sharon Olds, Sylvia Plath, etc.

Lauren:

How intriguing! I can see that.

Ronna:

I don't think poetry is perceived as appealing more to women. Just to more literary types of readers.  I agree with you, Lauren, that there is a sense that men write about the world, women about home.

Lauren:

Is that something you encounter as a fiction editor for a literary journal, the Bellevue Literary Review?

Ronna:

Do you mean that dichotomy between men and women's writing?

Lauren:

Yes, just wondering if it's something you've observed in that context.

Ronna:

I think less so, because the theme of the Bellevue Literary Review is health, healing, illness, relationship to the human body, so both men and women are dealing with these themes.  Often men write of relationships, although we do get fishing and boating stories from men, never from women. But men write about death of a spouse, just as women do, poignantly. 

Christine:

I find universal themes in women's poetry as well. 

Lauren:

Definitely. The thing that interests me is the perception, which I agree is not really borne out in real life.

Christine:

The world...but also domestic themes.  My chapbook is titled Domestic Weather, and does focus on family, relationships, etc.  My other writing is different, more expansive.

Ronna:

That perception is interesting.  It is ironic that more women buy books but there may be (not sure) fewer women writers than men.

Dan:

Do you find work by men is just as often about a more specific theme, as opposed to universal themes, as is seen in work by women? With the perceptions that are out there about women writers, as noted above.

Michelle:

Nope.

Bill:

Offhand: yes.  At least when I look at what’s coming out now. Particularly in non-fiction. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Christine:

I love Theodore Roethke's work...and he can dwell on family and garden details, relationships, glorious details.  I would hope in both men's and women's writing to find the particular going deep, applying universally.

Ronna:

I think men write about specific themes as well.  I just read James Salter's recent book and he writes about relationships, adultery, desire, very specific themes. Commercial fiction may be different.

Lauren:

I think so. Again, the diversity is definitely there, but the perception as presented by the media, critics, et al seems to paint a different picture.

Dan:

How do you go about developing characters that are universal, while remaining somehow distinct?  Does the thought even pop into your minds while writing?

Christine:

No, I let the piece develop from a specific detail.  It doesn't even have to include humans.

Ronna:

The thought never occurs to me.  When I write, I am trying to create a character, the relationships, a life, the details of that life.  I am very intent on these particular people, and don't think about whether they are universal representations.  If readers relate to the characters, I'm thrilled. That means I've created real enough people on the page.

Bill:

The thought occurs: Is this character specific enough?  Or is this detail or turn of phrase specific enough to the character to keep the “invention” alive.  For instance, while writing Mary, I often had to tone down her Jersey accent and meter the slang and local expressions. A little bit, I found, went a long way.  I did not want her to be any New Jersey woman, particularly since there is the perception that we know that type of woman in literature – and film.  And I wanted to make sure that she read as a woman of a certain generation: a relevant distinction -- Mary is not so much a woman as a Lady; this would matter to her.

Michelle:

This thought never pops into my mind while I'm writing, though I talk about it to undergraduates.  For me, every character is distinct--I can't imagine making one up who doesn't seem distinct to me. But they are so real to me! As soon as they emerge, they're already alive--and as distinct and complicated as any "real" person. But I suppose this is a skill, developed over years. I do take my beginning students through stages, step by step, toward creating distinct and still recognizable (or universal, I guess) characters.

Christine:

I try to see through the characters' eyes, take on their scent and skins, without worrying about it.

Ronna:

In a sense, when you write, you have to become many different people, just as Christine says. You become your characters. You know more about them than is on the page. When you write fiction, you can live many lives.

Dan:

I know you said that you don't select books because of the gender of the author - but do you find yourselves reading work differently based on either the gender of the author or the protagonist? Again, just searching for where these perceptions come from.

Michelle:

Absolutely not.

Lauren:

I get bored by men's writing more often. Statistically speaking.

Christine:

I wonder if there is a difference in prose poetry and flash fiction...a perception of more freedom in writing.  In hybrid writing, I almost expect something wilder, more fantastic or surreal.  I don't think I read it with any over concern about who the author is.  Although I might have high expectations for certain authors!

Lauren:

Like who? I am so curious!

Ronna:

I instinctively relate to women characters or understand them, and sometimes am fascinated by male characters, wondering how they do what they do.  Women's writing is often more nuanced. The James Salter book is stunning, though.

Bill:

I’m going to go out on a limb here: I have rarely picked up a novel or short story written by a woman in the voice of a man (or simply from his distinct perspective) and been completely convinced.  Though men writing believably in a woman’s voice is not wildly uncommon – from Daniel Defoe to Roddy Doyle to Russell Banks to Wally Lamb.  So I often find myself reading such gender bending (woman as man) with a touch of skepticism.  I wait for, then alas bang into – without naming names – the places where they miss the mark, linger wrongly, get sensitive when they should be dismissive.  I
mention this, in part, because that “prejudice” made my ultimate enjoyment of what Annie Proulx accomplished in “Brokeback Mountain” so much greater. It’s a third-person narration, of course, but very close to the two central male characters, and so deft was her handling of the male-male sexuality – and everything else -- that I found myself beyond grateful. I was amazed. And as a writer: inspired.

Dan:

By statistically speaking, Lauren, do you mean a greater percentage of works by males bore you than percentage of works by females do? Or a greater number of books by males do (possibly due to a larger subset)?

Lauren:

I don't have the research background to really say that in a definitive sense, but I prefer reading a specific kind of challenging, emotional narrative that is often feminine in its perspective and more encompassing. Men write those stories, too, most definitely.

Ronna:

I don't pay attention to gender when I read something I find boring. I just think the writer isn't skilled.

Christine:

I find the authors I read to be so diverse in talent and theme that I can't really separate the "boring" out by gender...hmmmm...

Lauren, were you asking me about the authors I have high expectations for?

Lauren:

Yes, Christine -- who do you have high expectations for?

Christine:

Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Flannery O'Connor...always surprising! I love the weird little worlds, the crooked stages of Charles Simic and Russell Edson.

Dan:

Going back to Lauren's comment about year-end lists - with a typical 2 or 3 of the top 10 being written by females – Looking back, would your own lists from 2005 have yielded similar results? Do you think this is common because most lists are coming from male-centric views?

Lauren:

I have no idea why it happens; it just stuns me every time.

Christine:

Maybe!  Of my own reading, I would estimate that I am reading fairly equal numbers of books by male and female authors.  Of my favorites, I think it plays out about the same!

Ronna:

Yes, the views are male-centric, perhaps because so many of the reviewers are male.  But also it has to do with book promotion and what books large houses choose to publish and make visible. Most books on the top 10 lists have [major] publishers behind them.

Michelle:

My list for 2005: at the very top is Coetzee's Slow Man (which I thought was the best novel I'd read in several years, and would be up near the top of my "best contemporary books" period); next would come Didion's The Year of Magical Thinking.  And in no particular order, beyond that: Alison Lurie's latest, Truth and Consequences; Mary Gaitskill's Veronica; Nick Hornby's A Long Way Down; Carol Shields' Collected Stories; Mary Gordon's Pearl; Francine Prose's A Changed Man; Curtis Sittenfeld's Prep; Dan Savage's The Commitment; Nancy Zafris' Lucky Strike; and my own former student Chris Coake's We're In Trouble. There seem to be more women than men on this list. And a lot more women, I guess, than on the typical list you're talking about. But there are also other books on my list that didn't make it, as far as I know, on to the "typical" lists (Zafris, Coake, Lurie, for sure; and the Sittenfeld I don't know about--but I imagine it seemed more "popular" than literary, though I thought it was a hell of a good book, especially for a first novel; I'm pretty sure the Dan Savage didn't make in on to any of the official lists, but I loved that book--I am just crazy about him, all around).  Anyway, I don't know that the female/male ratio of my list is meaningful in any way except (and maybe this is itself meaningful?) that a lot of my favorite contemporary writers are women, and a lot of them happen to have published books last year. But a lot of them didn't (Ozick, Lore Segal, Alice Munro, just to name a few). (Of course, some of my other favorite writers who are NOT women didn't publish a book last year, either--Philip Roth skipped last year. And Saul Bellow died. I am still in mourning.)

Lauren:

When I first started doing freelance publicity, I was surprised by how many women writers I worked with relative to male writers, and then I realized that women writers were the ones who needed the extra publicity. So yeah, the year-end lists matter. It's part of a larger trend.

Christine: 

I noted that one of my all time favorite books, A Hundred Years of Solitude, was on the men's favorites list you sent.

Lauren:

I just read a great interview with Richard Nash today where he discussed a growth strategy to represent many of the mid-list authors who get lost in the shuffle at big publishing houses but are extremely talented and disproportionately female.

Dan:

I did just notice the short list for the 2006 VCU First Novel Award had 12 authors - 6 men and 6 women. And must admit I was surprised by the equality.

Lauren:

That's impressive, and unusual, and I hope it was unintentional.

Dan:

And ten of the authors were published by big publishers - with one of each gender coming from the smaller (Coffee House Press and Low Fidelity Press).

I've not read nor heard anything that suggests it was a politically balanced list.

Lauren:

I imagine it was thoughtful but not biased.

Christine:

That's very interesting...do you have any other ideas why the numbers are so skewed?

Ronna:

That's great about the list. Why do women need the extra publicity?  Does that mean more men are published by commercial houses than women?

Lauren:

I don't know what it means. But it's easy to see how not being included on top 10 lists and then not selling a lot of copies and not getting reviewed or on the radar of prestigious committees would all add up to something.

Christine:

Well, do you feel the men were more assertive with their own marketing?

Ronna:

That's an interesting question, Christine. Maybe men are more willing to go out there and promote, push, in a way most women aren't.

Lauren:

Men definitely ask for more, and seem to be more outspoken in some seemingly small but critical ways.

Dan:

Lauren, is that statement in terms of your clients?

Lauren:

No in general. The same scenario exists in negotiating in business settings, etc.

I write a blog, LuxLotus.com, that has a small but regular audience and 99% of the letters I get are from men. They just feel more comfortable speaking up.

Christine:

I feel that poetry is a whole other marketing world.

Dan:

I actually see quite the opposite in terms of responses to EWN emails - probably 2-1 female to male responders - but to be honest, I think I probably have about a 55-45 ratio of women to men in the Emerging Writers Network.

Christine:

Hmmm.  I find I have really had to push my own comfort zone, getting out to read, talking to people, getting flyers posted, etc.

Ronna:

A writer has to be both artist and business person.  Maybe women are more comfortable (not all) with artistic role, while many men like the business aspect. A stereotype, but perhaps true.

Dan:

Do you think perhaps the larger publishers are publishing and promoting male writers more because they know there is a better chance of seeing a review in a major publication like the NYTBR?

Christine:

I hope not.

Ronna:

I think the promotion has to do with subjective taste, what the marketing department feels they can sell, what the publishers think will sell. 

Lauren:

It's just a man's world; James Brown sang that tune 40 years ago.

Ronna:

A man's world -- still???  But many great novels were written by women.

Lauren:

And they still are, most definitely. There's more support for good writing than ever, in my opinion, because of the growth of online culture.

Dan:

Is it odd then that approximately 95% of publicists are women (from my very unstatistical survey)?

Ronna:

Independent publicists? Or all publicists?

Christine:

Is that true...95%?  Personally, I find it helpful to have a women artists' group to support me and give me creative suggestions.

Lauren:

No, it's a pink ghetto with relatively low pay and no path to power in most organizations. But women are better at making connections so there's a positive angle as well. I certainly do enjoy my work, or I’d do something else.

Dan:

I'm thinking publicists from the major and even smaller houses.  I can only think of three publicists I regularly see books from that are male.

Ronna:

Interesting. Are editors mainly men or women, or evenly divided?

Christine:

I do think that women are very focused on relationships...that fits.

Dan:

I think it probably leans towards male for editors, but not nearly as drastic as it does in the opposite direction for publicists.

Lauren:

I have no statistical claims about editors or anything really that requires a lot of background data. Although I took four years of labor economics in college so I should have a better idea!

Ronna:

It's interesting that publicists have no path for advancement in a company, but can be so important to the life of an author or book.

Christine:

Lauren, do you see the same trends in publicists for poets? Or do poets not use publicists as much?

Lauren:

I'm not quite sure.

Ronna:

I would think in the poetry world, books and prizes are the currency, not number of readers or movie deals.

Christine:

Certainly financial gain is not a primary goal for a poet. Unless she/he is delusional!

Dan:

Interesting going back to Lauren's comment about the online book culture helping promote good literature.

Lauren:

It most definitely does.

Dan: 

The implication was it's not as gender biased as say, print media, or more mainstream media.

Ronna:

It's great that there are online review sites.  There's so little print space for reviews.

Dan:

Looking at the Litblog Co-op - 21 members:  12 male, 9 female… That’s a better breakdown than your average New York Times Book Review.

Lauren:

There are more opportunities across the board, and more chances for good writing – whomever the author is -- to shine through.

Dan:

The four Read This! selections so far?  Two written by females and two by males; This last round of five nominees?  3 written by women, 2 by men; The next round of four titles - two per gender.

Lauren:

Absolutely, astonishingly better by comparison to traditional media.

Ronna:

So cyberspace may be gender blind!

Christine:

I think the whole online literary culture has blossomed wildly over the last ten years.  With that, the respect for online publication has improved.  I love it that there seems to be that equality that you are mentioning.

Lauren:

And the fact that this conversation is being facilitated by the Emerging Writers Network speaks to the demand and interest in thoughtful, provocative conversations that wouldn't come up in say... USA Today. Or The Atlantic.

Ronna:

Those publications are too commercial for this kind of interchange, USA Today particularly.

Christine:

I think the online community is more open...and perhaps because of the technology, more oriented toward a younger, more liberal audience?

Dan:

To attempt to bring this full circle, one of the ideas behind this panel was to look at how you wrote, what you were thinking of in terms of gender and themes, while doing so. And it turns out that while in general there are these perceptions out there about gender of writers and protagonists, none of you have these perceptions in mind when actually doing the writing.

Christine:

True.

Dan:

Nor let them affect your work.

Ronna:

Very true. 

Christine:

Gender likely does affect the work, but not in a conscious way.

Ronna:

I agree with that. So much of writing comes from the unconscious, a kind of dream.

Lauren:

Well put. I'd love to hear your “top three” lists, of works by women writers, or told from a female perspective that readers should seek out! Just to help even the score.

Christine:

Three top poetry books by women?

Lauren:

Or about them...

Ronna:

I love all of Alice Munro's stories -- she's exceptional.  Also, Grace Paley's stories.  Interpreter of Maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri is very fine.

Michelle:

Do they have to be contemporary? If not: Middlemarch (my second-favorite all-time novel, after Anna Karenina) gets to be on this list. And also Katherine Mansfield's collected stories.  And...Elizabeth Bishop's Complete Poems.  If we're talking about recent books, then Alice Munro's Selected Stories (but also Runaway, and Hateship, Friendship...and, oh hell, all her other books too) and Cynthia Ozick's Puttermesser Papers.  Twentieth century overall? Mary McCarthy (anything by her, really) is way up there for me.  And for a great book written from a female perspective, but not written by a woman: Mrs. Bridge, by the brilliant Evan S. Connell.  Oh! And parts of Starting Out in the Evening, by Brian Morton, are from a woman's point of view, and it's just a wonderful, gorgeous novel--one of my very favorite contemporary novels.  I also like Claire Messud a LOT.  And for lovely books that reflect a vision of the world as a good place, and people as essentially designed for goodness and happiness, Laurie Colwin (anything except the novel A Big Storm Knocked it Over).  And as long as I'm giving shout-outs, here's one of my favorite all-time writers who happens not to be a woman, and whose books I can recommend wholeheartedly--all of them, any of them: Richard Yates. I'm sure I'm forgetting lots of writers whose work I love. But I'll stop here, since I've gone way over limit...

Bill:

It takes me a while to catch up with new releases, but here are the last three books I loved: “Middlesex,” which I’ve mentioned; “The Last of Her Kind” by Sigrid Nunez; and “Slouching Towards Bethlehem,” which I’ve just re-read for the umpteenth time, by Joan Didion.

Dan:

I won't say these are the top three works by women, but I'd highly recommend each of them: Garner by Kirstin Allio, The Baby Tree by Erin McGraw, Beloved by Toni Morrison. Not only written by women, but told from a female perspective as well.

I would say that wraps this up nicely.  Thank you all for participating.

Postscript

Christine Boyka Kluge:

Here are some poetry book recommendations (works by women authors):

View with a Grain of Sand by Wislawa Szymborska
The Complete Poems, 1927-1979 by Elizabeth Bishop
New and Selected Poems by Mary Oliver
Given Sugar, Given Salt: Poems by Jane Hirshfield
Breathing the Water by Denise Levertov
Anything by Emily Dickinson, various poems by Edna St. Vincent Millay

Encouragement and insight for women poets:

Object Lessons: The Life of the Woman and the Poet in Our Time by Eavan Boland
Nine Gates: Entering the Mind of Poetry by Jane Hirshfield

A fascinating collection of essays on poetry:
In the Blue Pharmacy: Essays on Poetry and Other Transformations by
Marianne Boruch

You may also be interested in these women writers of prose poetry (and flash fiction), who come up with quirky, beautiful and deep miniature worlds.  They are examples of writers whose names immediately beckon me to their work.  My high expectations are always rewarded with enchantment.  I love entering their secret kingdoms, knowing anything can happen.

Mary Koncel, author of You Can Tell the Horse Anything (Tupelo Press)
Amy Gerstler, who wrote Crown of Weeds (Penguin), a wonderful poetry collection
Naomi Shihab-Nye, author of Mint Snowball (Anhinga Press)
Nin Andrews, author of Why They Grow Wings (Silverfish Review Press)

Ronna Wineberg:

I did want to add: When a writer fully inhabits a character and writes from the feminine perspective, the images will be feminine, and if writing from a male perspective, images will be more masculine. This will happen regardless of the gender of the writer.  I think this is especially true of literary fiction, in which there is often more depth than in commercial fiction. Of course, some writers are more successful using one point of view than the other.  The key when writing is to inhabit the characters and story, immerse yourself in them, and not to think about audience or marketplace.  You write to please yourself first -- Eudora Welty, I think, said something like this.

Regarding Alice Munro's books: Runaway. The Progress of Love. Friend of My Youth.  Grace Paley's stories.  Interpreter of Maladies.  And I love Isaac Bashevis Singer -- a male writer who expertly portrays both women and men.

Further reading:

The Independent (UK), Is there such a thing as feminine writing?
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/features/article355733.ece

Also in The Independent, Women's Literature: the next chapter
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/news/article349912.ece

The Observer (UK), Women are still a closed book to men
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1494932,00.html

Comments

[Perry Anne Norton]

What a refreshing change to read a discussion with substance - takes me back to college lit days when people actually talked about ideas. This would have made a great podcast - maybe next time? Am sending this link to a friend in France who will want to comment as well, I'm sure...

[Lauren Baratz-Logsted]

Provocative discussion.

As Dan knows, I was on an insane mission last year to read 365 books. I just checked the 60 titles I put stars next to: 30 men, 30 women. I had no idea I was so democratic!

[domnic]

the work is splendid it captures the battle of a between male literary world versus the choregraphed women writing. We all have to agree that women writers put alot of passion in their work as demontrate by Mariama Ba in 'So Long A Letter'. Male writers have to agree to reduce the stereotyping and be objective about women writers.

[John Hash]

Hi, according to this discussion theme i think that you might be interested in http://www.yourgirls.ab3.eu/ where you can find hundreds of cool girls right from your town... Just check it.

[Laura Forester]

I think you would be interested in linking to our website! We are a media democracy organization.

A unique resource on our website is an online directory of women’s media.

Feel free to contact us at [email protected]

Sincerely,

Laura Forester
Women's Institute for Freedom of the Press

The Women's Institute for Freedom of the Press (WIFP) is a nonprofit, tax-exempt research, education, and publishing organization. The organization was founded to increase communication among women and to democratize the media by expanding freedom of the press. For more information about our organization and the media directory you can visit our homepage at www.wifp.org and the directory at www.wifp.org/DWM/DirectoryWomensMedia.html.

[dissertation help]

I had my orals on Friday of last week and everything went well! I’m referring dissertation-help.co.uk to my classmates who will be needing help soon. they did an excellent job with me and I take pride in referring you to friends.
_______________________

http://www.dissertation-help.co.uk/